I suppose this is due, in part, to how much gas is escaping out the short barrel past the bullet instead of gathering force behind it as it would in a longer barrel. Barrels with twist rates of 1:8 inches and even 1:7 inches have replaced the original-issue lands and grooves that spun the bullets at a rate of 1:9. This may be true for some configurations, in certain environments, with particular loads. JavaScript is disabled. HKs MP7 has never been available in any commercial form. I have a lot of love for my BCM because it was my first full build but the Saint is a great rifle off the shelf. Any ways I just bought the Springfield Saint Victor in .308 . The buttstock, although appearing very much in the M4 tradition, was modified to offer holes on each side for a quick-detach sling loop. Operation was very smooth and secure. Its perfect for indoor situations where 25 yards is a long shot and overpenetration is a concern. I used two suppressors with the Rattler. But upon closer inspection, we noticed that the safety and magazine release were ambidextrous. "If I'd known I'd live this long I'd have taken better care of myself.". FN sells a 16-inch-barreled carbine version of the P90, the PS90, but it looks ugly and awkward and is far from compact. Given the test barrel used to produce this data was likely 20 inches or more in length, we think this was still somewhat out of spec. The hammer and trigger components were treated to a silvery nickel-boron coating. So goes the AR-556 line of ARs. General guidelines dictate a 1:7 twist rate (there are also the odd 1:5 examples) for subsonic 300 Blackout and a 1:8 or slower for supersonic. Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. For targeting, I installed a set of Daniel Defenses fixed sights, as well as a Sig Sauer ROMEO3 reflex sight in a tall mount for co-witnessing. Before we jump headlong into what the market holds, perhaps we should touch upon why you might want to go a 300 Blackout pistol. check out the, Welcome to the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Forum, we hope you like what you find here and we strongly encourage you to. Is there anything sweeter than these mighty mites? Somy wife and i was having lunch with the Sig rep. and I asked about the .308 maybe coming out in the tread And he said soon which it did . Im looking eventually for a Tread 400 (maybe this one?). Pushing the SIG Sauer 77-grain OTM rounds to an average velocity of 2440 fps, the SIG Sauer ammunition, marked Match Grade Rifle, was still nevertheless well below the 2750 fps printed on the box. MCX-SPEAR . 4. Our best-of-test group measured 0.4 inch across. Taurus Marketing Manager Caleb Giddings highlights the features of the new Taurus Raging Hunter 460 Magnum, a purpose-built revolver with a 10.5-inch barrel and an effective recoil-taming brake, with Guns & Ammo Executive Editor Joe Kurtenbach. I'm curious what kind of accuracy you are going to see out of that thing. About every 20 to 25 shots, the trigger would pull straight through. The grip was certainly not traditional, offering a very friendly profile, including a pinkie ledge, at the bottom and an extended backstrap up over the web of the hand. Sig 716i or Springfield Victor Saint .308, https://www.surplusammo.com/categori-308-mags.html, MISC Training Course Announcements & AAR's, Former Vickers Shooting Method Regional Instructors, Pacific Northwest Training and Networking, All Other Longgun Parts, Accessories, & Magazines (EE), Handgun Parts, Accessories & Magazines (EE), If this is your first visit, be sure to
It's basically a bcm with the Saint logo on it. Aristotle who said Republics devolve into democracies and devolve into despotism.. After some time and the Rattler was more widely seen in the wild. I was at a gun expo local set up by or LGS where all the repp's come and its a shoot day . The Sig Virtus has these possible configurations: 300 Blackout: Barrel Lengths 6.75", 9", and 16" 5.56mm : Barrel Lengths 11.5" and 16" The Virtus is the more flexible platform, but there is nothing wrong with the Rattler. Jacketed bullets can fragment at higher velocities due to high twist rates. The PDW with the Hate Brake produced far less flash and noise than a 16-inch-barreled AR equipped with a traditional muzzlebrake. The Tread was $799.00 and the Saint was $849.00. Ah, the AR-pistol. A Magpul dual split aperture flip-up rear sight was attached to the top rail that ran the length of the receiver. Like the MPX, the MCX uses a short-stroke gas piston system, which does away with the need for a buffer system, and the weapon can use a folding stock or no stock at all. He called it a stutter. Whereas releasing the bolt is aided by the larger platform, setting the lock means pressing down on the smaller end. I wanted to see if the bullets would expand at close range given their lower velocities. Springfield has made some shitty moves in the past but they make an amazing AR. Suppressed, the Rattler ran everything on the supersonic setting (less gas). As was the case with the M400 Classic, the front sight was not visible with the Tango4 optical scope mounted. Hampering this a bit out of the box is a mil-spec clone trigger, easily rectified with your favorite upgrade model. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. The selector switch is bilateral and works just fine. Working the Saint trigger differed from that of the SIG Sauer. One answer would be to take advantage of the latest technology in terms of manufacturing, helpful features and improved ammunition. But I will check out Sig's new Tread SE to see if I like it Yeah. Let's pick up there. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . Introduced in 2015, the MCX is essentially a larger, rifle-caliber version of Sig Sauers pistol-caliber MPX. Both rifles have a similar price, $809 for the Saint with discount code and $799 for the Tread. With the shooter lined up on the center target, the object was to land as many hits as possible into the central A-zone of each paper target within a fixed 10-second time limit. It has a cone-within-a-cup two-piece design reminiscent of the Noveske KX3. To test the SIG MCX Rattler SBR as it might be used on a deployment, I added a few accessories. This website contains many older reviews. Many contend a 1:8 twist will stabilize heavy subsonic bullets. (Tie) B&T .45 2. This short barrel has a 1-in-5-inch twist rate optimized for heavy bullets, and its paired with an adjustable gas block so you can run the gun with a suppressor, for example. That said, neither of the suppressors was really quiet. Measuring Performance A PDW is not a rifle. Bob Meinert, FN Marketing Director, introduces FN's first commercial pistol suppressor, the FN Rush 9Ti. It is everywhere and inexpensive, especially when compared to those two boutique cartridges. Honestly, theres not a ton to ballyhoo on the pistol other than it runs, dependably so. Compare. If we were to describe the bolt lock/release assembly as a seesaw, the typical lower end could be seen as being constructed without the seat. Stocky's Owner Don Bitz walks David Faubion through the company's new rifle stocks for 2023. If you havent heard yet, be advised that millions of gun owners may soon be classified as felons if a new Bureau of Alcohol, AR-15 Carbines for Less Than $1300: The Winner is a Saint, SIG Sauer P365XL Spectre P365V001 9mm Luger, Springfield Armory Hellcat Pro HCP9379BOSP 9mm Luger, SHOT 2023: Savage Arms Introduces 1911 Government Model Pistols, 5 Best 9mm Pistols for Concealed Carry in 2023, New Shooters Guide: The Best Gun For Home Defense Isnt a. It began in earnest in the late 1980s. At the range, my first order of business was zeroing the Rattler and shooting five-shot groups with it at 50 yards using loads from Barnes, Hornady, Lehigh Defense and Sig. As to the brace, its a Tailhook Mod 2, an adjustable model that does an excellent job of settling in the gun. Will it perform at greater distances? Both of them are chambered in uncommon, proprietary bottleneck cartridges, the 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, respectively. The old-fashioned buttpad didnt bother us because it was properly fit, but wed definitely change out the grip. Our action test was designed to tell us more about trigger response and maneuverability than could be culled from a static benchrest session. The first and third pics are the rifle I examined, but the second isn't. I Have the 1st Sig's M400 Tread and it's a nice gun , It shoots great and built very good . Since then, the company expanded the line of guns to include a range of variations that fall into three main lines. In measuring trigger-pull weight, we arrived at an average of about 7.2 pounds. I really liked the Blue TS2 ,so in the end she was getting one for me for a surprise for my birthday . The Judge has been promoted! Can the SIG MCX Rattler do it? The new-for-2023 lineup includes ultralight hunting stocks and a VGA 2-pound adjustable vertical-grip stock. The heavier 120- to 125-grain loads performed similarly. Combine the heft with a quality suppressor and the Blackouts recoil is negated to next to nothing, giving the pistol excellent follow-up shot accuracy. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. This removed any slack between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. They are meant to be easier to use and harder-hitting than a handgun but smaller and lighter than a rifle. Thanks Bio. I said you really loved shooting the orange . Takedown revealed nickel-boron coating of hammer and trigger components, plus a tension screw to fix any gap between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. Our days at the range were somewhat windy, so waiting for a lull before releasing a shot was standard procedure. Though, the pistol is a 1:8 twist rate affair. Bought separately, the SCW (with this H3 buffer) retails for $590. 9mm this thing is a work of art and insanely smooth as silk , it shoots its self ..LOL. Ruger's multi-role small frame autoloading rifle - Sear - combines AR-10 power with AR-15 Portability. Two additional components from Bravo Company contributed to the Saints distinctive lines. Please keep us posted. According to the Sig Rep on ARFCOM: "6.75"/LVAW barrel was/is not made to be fired unsuppressed. More money for ammo, Fsatureless affords full capacity magazines, @bamaengineer may i ask why you would choose the Sig over the Saint? While chambered in 5.56 NATO, the Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW has but a 5.5-inch barrel. Pretty standard, yes, but the 5.56 rendition comes with Springfields forward blast diverter. Want to optimize the hush on a 300 Blackout pistolor carbineits a subsonic ammunition affair. American Shooting Centers is a public range, and placing the rifle in the racks during cease fires with the bolt locked open required care because any impact to the buttstock would release the bolt. The trigger is Springfields flat trigger, first introduced on the Saint Victor line. Rattler was built to be fired primarily unsuppressed, with the ability to be suppressed, if needed. I was really happy . Please give me your thoughts and opinions! For example, Ive seen U.S. Department of State Diplomatic Security Service special agents wielding them in the field when guarding high-value targets. Lets see if our money was well spent. Garmin Tactix 7 Pro Ballistic Solar-Powered GPS Smartwatch: First Look, How to Choose the Best Scope Reticle for Your Application, Colt King Cobra Target 22LR Rimfire Revolver: New for 2022, Self-Defense Handgun and Ammo Options for People With Dexterity and Strength Issues, 5 Best Red-Dot Optics for SIG Sauer P365X & XL Pistols. But I also own several Springfields (M1As in 308 & 6.5cm, Saint Ar15 when it first came out, compact XDe, XDs & XD Mod2 all in 45s, TRPs in 45 & 10mm and the now discontinued Range Officer in 45). But thats not really new, either. Targets left and center showed four A-zone hits, but one shot on each target was outside of the A-zone. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. I got the email also Bio. The Sig Enhanced is heavy and not as responsive as youd expect in a gun of this class, somewhat akin to a mil-spec job. Purely on the rifle's features / traits wise, Update: im being told that both rifles are available for ~$1000 should I wait; i guess the extra $$$ is demand / price gouging for the saint. So move along . Here are my personal Pros & Cons of the Saint Victor (FEATURELESS, CA Compliant version) Pros: - Comes with basic flip-up sights ready to go out of box - Full length M-Lok rail slots (TREAD seems to stop 8/10 of the way from the front) - Lighter Cons: - $1400+tax - 2 port MB rather than M400's 3 port (any difference in felt recoil?) Taylors & Company FS Tactical 1911: Now in 10mm! It will likely go through a threat up close (given no contact with bone), but most of its work is done before exiting. Relatively speaking, the 300 Blackout is better suited to shorter barreled guns; in fact, it was designed for exactly this task. Logical on the surface, given faster twist rates are generally required for heavier bullets, but there is debate on the matter. I have a sig elite which is similar to the tread, no issues solid rifle. I would use the 110-grain Barnes TAC-TX load and never feel undergunned. It was too short. Units specializing in covert, ship-borne or hostage-rescue operations still wanted PDWs with more powerrifle-caliber power to be exact. For more information, please see our MSRP: $949; ruger.com. To this end, the Protector boasts Wilsons excellent M2 two-state TTU trigger, factory set to between 4.5 to 5 pounds. A quick note on sub- and supersonic ammunition and suppression. If the Mk4T had either of the triggers found on the SIG Sauer or Springfield Armory carbines, it might have been the accuracy champ of this test. We tend to the 7.5-inch SBA3 model, given its the rare smallster in the caliber that doesnt demand a kings ransom. So after that day it was on my dream list . Thus, stabilizing subsonic ammo not an issue. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . The Springfield Armory Saint Victor .308 was announced 2 months after SIG had secured the sale with India in April 2019. I usually have to take break between mags. SAINT ARs come in a range of sizes and calibers. For a firearm chambered in a rifle caliber, that is shockingly short, especially when you consider the first 2.26 inches or so is the chamber. I recently got the Tread 716i 308, MCX Rattler in 300 BLK and MPX K (completes my collection as I also have the MPX Copperhead and PCC). Don't wrestle with pigs, don't argue with idiots. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. The only complaint is the 300 Blackouts A2 flash hider. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - First AR15 purchase; SIG M400 TREAD v. Springfield Saint Victor? Ready to go where-ever it's needed, the MCX Rattler has a thin, foldable stock for easy concealment and stowage. With the provided 20-round Magpul PMAG in place, the PDW weighs 5 pounds, 10 ounces. Given the paperwork and money you spent on the can, is it worth testing twist-rates theories yourself? The visual theme of the Saint was that it looks to be one piece instead of an upper and lower, or as some say, it looks monolithic. I would deploy this as a dedicated entry rifle in a heartbeat. Additionally, the gun has one of the best brace systems going, a fast-deploying affair that cuts the size of the firearm nearly in half when folded in. The Rattler is, essentially, as. The metal loop at the heel of buttplate was free swinging. The art of shooting groups from support is about being patient. Anybody who has experience with these I would appreciate your opinions. New! The company has several 300 Blackout pistols worth considering and fairly comparable in construction. Learn how your comment data is processed. In 2017, the U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) issued a Request For Information, basically asking someone to design a .300 Blackout PDW top end for them that a soldier could slap onto a standard M4 lower to create a concealable AR-based PDW. So had to go home and think about it , while driving she asked which one I liked , i like them all but of course . Save my name and email to use for future comments. Featured one of the most consistent triggers weve tried and costly ambidextrous controls. Spring loaded at rest, there was a platform on each side that released the sight instantaneously to its vertical position. After comparing the two the Springfield was built better and . One set of Keymod holes was located on the underside at 6 oclock. Substantial in some circumstances. a little more then I've ever spent on a gun .So I called it a holy grail gun , which I had many other guns in front of that one . The Premier Body Armor Vertx Collaboration Adds More Options, VIDEO: Police Snipers Train for Super Bowl LIV With .50 BMG, More, The MAUSER 98 125th Anniversary Limited-Edition Series, FIRST LOOK: Glock Just Very Quietly Unveiled the New Glock 47 Pistol, Police Sidearms: The Handguns of Americas 10 Largest Departments, Black Creek Labs MRX Bronco, TRX Bronco Hunter Rifles, CMP Surplus Ammo Coming Soon in M2 Ball, .30 Carbine & More, Active School Shooter Training: 14 Key Points to Consider, 5 Strategies For Effectively Completing a Tactical Reload, FIRST LOOK: Colt CBX Precision Chassis Rifle Ready to Compete & Win, 5 Common Myths on How to Survive a Gunfight, Understanding Stand Your Ground Laws and Castle Doctrine, Long-Distance Shooting: 5 Must-Know Tips For Spotters & Shooters, IMPACT Experience Events Redefine Your Long-Range Shooting Limits, Sniper Skills: Taking Your Shooting Precision to the Next Level. The 194-grain Lehigh Defense ME bullet was the only subsonic to expand. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Indoors, every load produced visible flash, but premium ammo gave me a small, manageable flash. A staff member recently paid $2300 for a complete AR-15 carbine without regret. I'm selling my XD and definitely going with the MCX. Rather, the AR-15 is an ideal defensive weapon necessary for the legally armed defense-conscious American. Because I knew the velocity would be lacking, most of my chronographing was done with 5.56 NATO ammo, which runs a bit hotter. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Operating the trigger in a controlled press, the trigger seemed to find two stopping points before finally breaking a shot. Apr 24, 2017 After all, the eminently suppressible, hard-hitting .30-caliber was tailored for such gunscarbine and smaller that is. As far as stabilization, it features the fairly standard SB Tactical SBA3 brace. To test this, I fed the PDW Black Hills 77-grain TMK load in addition to more traditional offerings. Maximum bullet weight was considered to be 69 grains. With the specs they listed, the barrel couldnt be much more than 6 inches, and it had to havethe ability to swap between the specd .300 BLK top end and one chambered in 5.56. That's a $1000 dollar rifle and a good deal at that but you're getting gouged pretty bad at 1400. Saw that email pop up today. Ive also thought the same thing about 20-round magazines in a full-size AR. I had several concerns due to its comically short barrel, its accuracy, reliability and velocity. The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. Jones .300 Whisper wildcat cartridge and developed the SAAMI-standardized 300 Blackout. The barrel is tipped with a special version of Maxim Defenses interesting Hate Brake. The other rifles did not suffer this complaint. It has a pretty decent barrel and is reliable, so I can recommend it as a solid choice. However, it does have certain things to recommend it over those others. Thanks Bio. I bought a Tread on a whim. I would really like to hear from you guys who have had access and range time with these MSR's. and at a gun show I saw the Sig Cross bolt rifle . ". Their latest addition is the Saint Edge PDW AR pistol, and Im sure it will get its large slice of the AR pie. I wrote SilencerCo to ask about the Hybrid compatibility. It started expanding at about 6 inches and fragmented at 15, leaving just the lead core and base at 26 inches. In fact, it wasnt that long ago that SIG was in a similar position. The only mistake Springfield made on an otherwise terrific design, was to have the hand guard ride over the threads.
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